Can You Afford It?

[WB William Isabelle]

An important component that sometimes goes unconsidered, is can a man interested in becoming a Freemason, really afford it?

Freemasonry as a fraternity doesn't pay it's members. The members donate to their organization(s) annually, in the form of dues.

There are dues for each organization you participate in. Application fees and uniform costs for different bodies, just to apply to be considered for election to membership.

Most Masonic bodies host meals for their members before meetings, for which donations are encouraged to continue to provide the service.

Masons donate to the relief of our Masonic widows and the families of our departed Brethren, though we do so discreetly, so know one really knows who pays how much.

Then there is travel to and from, or even perhaps across the state to attend annual meetings, and of course their are those groups and bodies that meet nationally and internationally, and that requires expense for accomodations and so forth.

It is said that a man will get out of Masonry as much as his heart and his wallet will allow him to, and it is certainly true.

Your personal finances will directly impact what kind of Masonic experience you can afford to have. Can you afford it?

Cheers,

William

[Bro. Ray Dunn]

It is said that a man will get out of Masonry as much as his heart and his wallet will allow him to, and it is certainly true.

Your personal finances will directly impact what kind of Masonic experience you can afford to have. Can you afford it?

Cheers,

William

WB William,
I take a different stance on the subject of putting a price tag on Masonry by intentionally distancing money from the experience obtained. I'm of the opinion that Masonry in and of itself has no monetary value, but a spiritual value.

I agree that money plays a large part of Freemasonry if we look at the definition of the "fraternity" from the social aspect. Scholarships, charity donations, etc. are all part of what Masonry does, but is not what Masonry IS.

I think that saying that our Masonic experience is based on what we can afford is implying that the only way to gain true Masonic and spiritual growth is to join the most expensive Lodge that we can find.

I would suggest that the Masonic experience one attains within their Lodge is driven by its' members, not the cost. The choice to practice Masonry in its' purest sense is a personal choice.

We can only discuss the "cost" of Masonry because we as Masons have decided to look at Masonry through corporate glasses, associating the cost with the experience; convincing ourselves that the more we pay, the more we get.

[WB William Isabelle]

Brother Ray,

While I agree that "Masonry" and one's "Masonic" experience are priceless and cannot be truly valued because of the intrinsic subjectivity of the same, my comment is more or less aimed at the non-Masons that can view this particular forum, and asks if they have considered that there IS a real world cost to applying to any Lodge.

I'm asking if they know that if one is accepted for membership and becomes active in the fraternity, there will be ongoing expenses that do have a monetary value and a financial impact on our membership.

I'm not an advocate that states that a man's prosperity will determine his potential for enlightenment, all I'm saying is that there are costs attached to membership, and that rich or poor pay alike. :)

Thanks for helping clarify the conversation Brother.

Cheers,

William

[Bro. Ray Dunn]

Agreed, to the non-Mason, it may come as quite a surprise.

[Bro. Ray Dunn]

And thanks for clarifying your original post. When I see money and Masonry in the same sentence, I tend to narrow the focus quite a bit!

[Bro. Peter Taylor]

I agree with you Bro William. The "costs" of membership of the Craft in General and my Lodge in particular a clearly explained to the Candidate at his enquiry committee interview so that he is in no doubt of his future expenses.

To me I find Freemasonry value for money, and not that expensive, but I have heard some say that the cost was one of the factors that stopped them coming to meetings!

[WB Mike Smitson]

Some Lodges have opted to have the craft pay for their meals instead of the Lodge paying for their meals. This mostly works! Can you pay $20+ for a nice dinner per person for each meeting you attend?

For the all Male dinners, the money is usually not a problem. It becomes more of a burden when wives and children are invited to attend at $20+ per plate, when the children are young and do not eat very much.

The price for the degrees do not cost as much as they should. No matter what value we place on the amount of information and work received by the candidates. (This is for the US members only.) I understand that other countries pay considerable more for their degrees!

Some Lodges have started to raise their dues, not because of their economic position, but to increase the level of their value for the services rendered to the members.

I heard a rumor of a Lodge that charges $1200 a year in dues. They also pay each member $100 for each of the Stated Communications that they attend. The Lodge is closed 2 months each year. So in reality, dues are $200 per year.

In building all of my uniforms, I have but two items that are not mine to owns, my Cheapeau and my sword of the Knights Templar. I have my own kilt and other items for that wearing. And I have the other items required of my dress, including the Black Tie thingy. How much have I spent? Thousands! What I received in return? Priceless.

It has taken me a long time to acquire all the degrees and items associated with the degrees. I only do the degrees I can afford. Maybe I will be able to afford more when time also becomes available after I retire from active work...:cool:

Should we expose our prospective candidates of the dues costs for each of our bodies when we interview them? I think so! If we get a 21 year old guy that is just married and without any children, he will be hard pressed to pay all the dues a year and build a family and work a lot to support his family...

This will give the candidate a picture of what is to come and he can plan accordingly.

[Bro. Theo Jones]

A couple of us were talking about this after lodge two weeks ago. There was a time in our fraternity, not so long ago, when they asked to see a potential candidates financial records to verify they would be able to pay their dues and make their financial commitments. Elitist? maybe Responsible? absolutely!

[Bro. Bill Arnold]

I heard a rumor of a Lodge that charges $1200 a year in dues. They also pay each member $100 for each of the Stated Communications that they attend. The Lodge is closed 2 months each year. So in reality, dues are $200 per year.

Interesting concept. This would generally raise attendance or may result in many demitts.

S & F,

[WB Mike Smitson]

Interesting concept. This would generally raise attendance or may result in many demitts.

S & F,

They were trying to convience their membership to attend lodge, hence the $100 returned to them if they attended.

Now this lodge would have placed a value on thier services performed for their brothers for the year. How many meetings would you miss if this was your lodge, after you paid your dues?

[psunavy03]

I believe both sides of the argument have value. It is necessary to have a significant "investment," if you will, as what we obtain cheaply we do not esteem properly. But I am firmly opposed to pricing good men out of the fraternity simply due to their financial situation. A lodge should not insist that one size fits all. If a candidate can afford the fees up front, they should be collected up front. If not, then the Lodge should work with him to come up with a payment plan to allow him to join.

Can you put Light on layaway? :D

[WB Mike Smitson]

My lodge will work with the prospective candidate. If it takes him three months to come up with the funds to pay for the initiation, then we wait three months for him to pay us. We also wait to read his petition.

In the Scottish Rite, when I was acting Secretary of the Valley, we used a credit card payment for purchasing of a Life Membership. This sometimes took just over two years to complete and the member also had to pay his dues with the credit card in December each year until his Life Membership was paid in full.

If Life Membership is $1,000.00, for example, could you afford to pay it in one lump sum? A few of us here can, and I would venture to say most could not afford it, and would have to save to pay it. Now, can you afford $50.00 a month for 20 months? Most of us can do that! Then why can't we pay using the Credit Card, or even PayPal. I just love the Lodges I belong that uses PayPal for payment of dues and dinners. This eliminates problems as both the payee and the receiver (Treasurer and Secretary) get a receipt. The reports for the Lodge are great for tracing payments and arranging dinner costs (number of paid dinners) and allow for closer accounting of our Lodges expenses.

Now look at your Treasurer in your Lodge or Valley. Most are CPAs or Accountants, or something along those lines...maybe a banker even. I would venture to say most of them are older...retired...and are leary of using the Internet to help them account for their monies. This means that the younger Mason does not get to be able to use his tools as he as for the last few years to help him in paying his bills...the Internet.

{steps down from soap box now...:)

Hopefully I did not step on too many toes here! :eek:

Thanks for letting me express myself.:run:

[WB William Isabelle]

Brothers,

Wouldn't it make sense to make asking for permission to do a credit check of a petitioner, standard practice?

Really, a man in dotage is one who is not eligible, is he?

[Bro. JC Walker]

Dotage (I thought) referred to senility, not one's financial status.
However, I would agree that a man in severe debt is probably a poor choice of candidate, though many of us may have shadows on our reports.

[Bro. Jason Hoffman]

If you apply for a job or to coach a kids team, they require a basic background check that includes credit report and criminal record.

Why would a fraternity anticpating lifelong bonds amongst good and reliable men expect any less?

A credit report shows employment history as well as faithfulness in making payments, etc. Certainly anyone can get laid off, fall on hard times or miss a payment. But I would think the only candidates who should be excluded based upon this information would be an otherwise unexplainable pattern of ongoing financial or criminal irresponsibility.


Brothers,

Wouldn't it make sense to make asking for permission to do a credit check of a petitioner, standard practice?

Really, a man in dotage is one who is not eligible, is he?

[WB William Isabelle]

Dotage (I thought) referred to senility, not one's financial status.
However, I would agree that a man in severe debt is probably a poor choice of candidate, though many of us may have shadows on our reports.

You're right Brother, dotage does refer to senility.

What I was referring to, and not employing the right word ;) was a man who is encumbered by the stresses of his circumstances, be it financial or otherwise.

All I'm saying is that I have met those who have a dues card and a red amber S&C pinky ring, who made it clear that they became a Mason because they believed that membership would result in direct benefit and or financial gain for them.

This fraternity is not a community service organization, we are a western mystery school. However, before anyone is going to tell you any secrets, you pretty much have to prove you're trustworthy, and not motivated by impure motives, ie. personal gain or expectation of relief.

[Bro. JC Walker]

And yet we ask, over and over, if they understand "that nothing in the way of personal advancement, either financial or otherwise, can be expected from his membership."

I agree that a background check of some sort is in order.

Wasn't it Groucho Marx that said, "I would never join an organization that would have me as a member"?

[Bro. James Rafferty]

I answer this question with yet another
Can You really afford Not to Pursue this Path????

Brother James Rafferty
Lodge#774 Kenedy Texas
A.F. & A.M.

[WB Dan Ellnor]

Masonry is held to cheaply. I have seen many comparisons of % dues to income over the years. It has steadly fallen. If I recall correctly Masonry cost a man one months salary at one time. Consider that my Masonic dues for all organizations PLUS all my professional association dues do not add up to 1% of my total yearly income much less 1/12th for masonic dues alone.

Then again how much are donuts, coffee, and battered code worth that is apart of 99% Masonic Light nowadays.

Sorry I certainly think dues should be well over 100 for most blue lodges that own there own buildings. Higher if a meal is served and higher still depending on the quality of program you have.

Look at the Rotary club for a model. Miss more than 3 meetings per year and you are at risk of loosing your membership, luncheons are silver and china, presenters at each, dues regularly are over 500 per year.

They are not crooning for members....

Just saying.

[djrosen]

Dues at my lodge are $75 per year. We 'ask' for a $25 donation but it is not required. We lease our building from another lodge, for meals (which have have at every meeting, stated and called) we put a kitty jar out and ask that everyone other than guests contribute $5 to eat we also budget for refreshment and brethren 'guest' steward occasionally. When I guest, my meal is donated so any money in the kitty goes back to the lodge

[Brother Steven]

If you apply for a job or to coach a kids team, they require a basic background check that includes credit report and criminal record.

Why would a fraternity anticpating lifelong bonds amongst good and reliable men expect any less?

A credit report shows employment history as well as faithfulness in making payments, etc. Certainly anyone can get laid off, fall on hard times or miss a payment. But I would think the only candidates who should be excluded based upon this information would be an otherwise unexplainable pattern of ongoing financial or criminal irresponsibility.

I for one believe the credit check is out of bounds for a new candidate. The original purpose of the credit check was to determine whether you should be given credit terms to purchase a refrigerator or car or television set on terms that used to be called "buying on time." Now, even potential employers are allowed to examine your credit record, a trend which I am working with my state and federal legislatures to stop.

The theory behind it with potential employers (and I know this because they have told me) is to see what your financial situation is like and whether or not you are more likely to embezzle or outright steal money from them as your employer. Truly, since the credit check doesnt say why you couldnt pay your phone bill or a revolving account at a department store or why they put an adverse hit on your credit report, it is of very little use to a potential employer. Now, a criminal background check, yes, absolutely. Further, bad reports on ones credit check "drop off" after 7 years so information older than that, like defaulting on a student loan, for example, would not be available to the employer. An employer is paying you to do a specific job. Whether or not you could meet your financial obligations in the past is, quite frankly, non of their business.

[k.sharma]

This is a very interesting discussion. I am from a Lodge in the UK and we charge roughly $250 per year as dues. We also charge roughly $40 per plate for meals and cocktails. There is also a raffle at dinner, and donation towards widows etc. which entails roughly $25. There is also a mandatory $75 per year donation towards charity which is direct debited. Any more is at our discretion and its usually more than that. There are no costs for degrees, however, after your third (or so I am told, I am yet to receive mine), there is a further charge of roughly $90 for the apron and the blue book. Any Chapters you might join, any other appendant bodies you may join have their own dues and costs for dinner.
With 5-8 meetings a year for the lodge, 2-3 meetings per year for chapter (the lodge dues are low however in the region of $180 per year), the costs are in the region of $1050 per year. It is an expensive preposition no doubt about it.
However, firstly, you can pay the dues any time before the end of the year, there are no pressures, and the dinner fee is paid on the day of the meetings (every month) so the costs are spread out over the year. Secondly, the experience is, as mentioned earlier, priceless. How can you place a value, a price on brotherhood, on bonds (those of friendship my accountant/banker brothers) and on the experience you get from a lodge?
To those brothers who sometimes mention the even increasing costs, my simple answer is that if you keep aside all of the above, and think in cold dollar value terms, if you were to enroll in a personality development/leadership/public speaking course, the cost would be considerably higher. However, through floor work (if you actively participate), through toasts and replies and through talking to brothers from all walks of life, who are usually very well placed in their respective lines of work, you gain all of those skills.
If such a minor skill (with respect to the experience of Masonry), is so valuable in the outside world, how can anyone ever say that Masonry is an expensive pursuit (it is expensive, but so is the laptop I am using to type this, I would rather give up my expensive laptop than lose my brothers).

I am a very young Brother, only 24 and have been a Mason for only 2 years and am a F.C., however I do belong to a family of Masons and they always taught me politeness. So, if I have stepped on anyone's toes here, please accept my apologies and if I am wrong, please do correct me.:)
Thanks.

[WB Dan Ellnor]

Bro. Sharma,

Every input here is valued as it brings light to darkness. Even if I totally disagree with what you say on an issue I find out more about how I feel about my own position on an issue at least.

Your point is well founded.

[Bro. Jeffrey Blaisdell]

There is also a mandatory $75 per year donation towards charity which is direct debited.

That's not charity, that's a tax. "Mandatory donation" is an oxymoron.

I do like the idea of paying for meals. It puts the burden on those there. But $40? It must be quite a spread!

Secondly, the experience is, as mentioned earlier, priceless. How can you place a value, a price on brotherhood, on bonds (those of friendship my accountant/banker brothers) and on the experience you get from a lodge?

Agreed- how can you?

[Bro. Jim Hinkley]

The theory behind it with potential employers (and I know this because they have told me)....
How many did you talk to about this??

........is to see what your financial situation is like and whether or not you are more likely to embezzle or outright steal money from them as your employer. Truly, since the credit check doesn't say why you couldn't pay your phone bill or a revolving account at a department store or why they put an adverse hit on your credit report, it is of very little use to a potential employer.........
Completely untrue. A potential employees history of repayment can reveal a lot about his/her character, work ethic, motivation and potential longevity.

........ An employer is paying you to do a specific job. Whether or not you could meet your financial obligations in the past is, quite frankly, non of their business.
You may not think so, but this information can be very important. You are right....it is none of my business unless you allow me to access and review your report. There are plenty of jobs out there, and if you do not want me as a potential employer to have that information....I CANNOT get it. Completely up to the applicant.
Hardship aside, an applicant who has a long history of overextending and/or failing to meet his/her fiscal obligations could hardly be expected to meet my employment ones. Hiring an employee represents a financial commitment for me in training, set up, and maintainence....one I can hardly afford to take lightly or repeat constantly. Whether or not anyone understands that.....I own the business and I make the rules. There was no government bailout for me or the forty families my business supports, and I vigorously protect it with every tool at my disposal.
As for checking that history for a potential candidate for the degrees.....well, I really do not have an opnion...

Now back to the topic at hand.....

[Bro. JC Walker]

$40? It must be quite a spread!
He did say meal and cocktails.

And one of my lodges will be putting a change to the Brethren next month to increase the dues to $240.

From $34.

[Bro. Peter Taylor]

That's not charity, that's a tax. "Mandatory donation" is an oxymoron.

Totally agree! Charity is voluntary..... simple! And it should be discrete as well!

Jesus teaches: Matthew 6:1-13

"Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your Father in heaven. "Therefore, when you do a charitable deed, do not sound a trumpet before you as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory from men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. "But when you do a charitable deed, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, that your charitable deed may be in secret and your Father who sees in secret will Himself reward you openly."

[Roy Jamieson Logie]

Absolutely spot on Bro. Taylor. Well said.

[Roy Jamieson Logie]

Masonry in England is very different from Masonry in Scotland. Historically English Speculative Masonry attracted the aristocracy, the rich and famous, the intelligencia. Its fees were high because initially only the well off could afford it. Even when I joined (1977), fees for joining were set at roughly a month's average wage. The annual dues of the average English Lodge are now in excess of £100. A friend of mine has annual dues of £160 which are set to rise to £180. Lodges in London have fees vastly higher. Meeting eight times a year a meal at the social board following the meeting averages £20 for a three course meal. (Up to £50 plus in London) Drinks are extra.
In Scotland, Speculative Masonry,developing from operative stonemasons' Lodges, was always inclusive of the working man. Scottish Freemasonry is more down to earth and holds dear the principle that "all men are equal on the Square". It thus lacks the arrogance and pompousness prevelant in some English Lodges. It certainly would not tolerate some of the Grand and Provincial Grand Lodge Officers who are overwhelmed at their own magnificence.
Fees in Scotland for joining and annual dues, are much less than their English counterparts. After meeting proceedings are a "Lodge Harmony", not a formal Social Board with speeches and toasts to the "Supreme and Subordinate" (or superior and surreal, as they are sometimes referred to). The Harmony is an informal affair. The food of sandwiches and pies, and cakes etc, provided by the Brethren themselves. The informality allows for converstion and discussion on a more personal basis.
Although I remain in an English Craft Lodge and Mark Lodge, I have affiliated to Scottish Chapters and Preceptories etc., in Scotland.
Reading some of the posts, I get the impression that there is some opinion that the fees for becoming a Mason in America should be set high (the equivalent of a month's wages?). I have to ask why. To prevent persons of more limited means from applying? To maintain the standards set by founders? To ensure only a certain type of person is eligible? To exclude those Masons who have fallen on hard times? To keep out the riff-raff?
To my mind it is the calibre of person applying to join that is the standard to seek, not the size of his wallet. "The mason knows the noble truth, the Scottish Bard has told. That rank is but the guinea's stamp, the man himself the Gold". (Robert Burns)
As I said, I joined the English Constitution, which is more expensive. Since moving to Scotland I have seen more "Masonry in men" that I have come across in Scottish Masonry, than I sometimes came across in England.
My other point is, over here as well as anywhere else, the numbers of active Freemasons is declining (another topic in itself). Most Lodges have an aging membership. Many of whom are on fixed incomes and pensions. I would not like to further reduce numbers by having joining fees and annual dues set at artificially high levels.

[Bro. JC Walker]

For us it is a matter of fiscal survival; rent has gone up, income has gone down. It costs nearly $100 a day to keep our building.
The average dues in my jurisdiction are less than $50 a year, considerably less in some lodges, and $20 of that goes to the Grand Lodge.
If dues rose with the rate of wages, or inflation, we would certainly be paying more each year. Much more.

[Bro. Bill Leser]

Reading some of the posts, I get the impression that there is some opinion that the fees for becoming a Mason in America should be set high (the equivalent of a month's wages?). I have to ask why. To prevent persons of more limited means from applying? To maintain the standards set by founders? To ensure only a certain type of person is eligible? To exclude those Masons who have fallen on hard times? To keep out the riff-raff?

I'm not sure how it is elsewhere, but in my experiance, people value most what costs them something. Whether it's a monetary (and $100 means a lot more to hourly person making $10/hr than a CEO) or a time and effort cost (psst! buddy! for $20 I can make you a grand high mucky muck of the muck brotherhood). Give a lecture for free and people don't even have the courtesy of cancelling or showing up. Charge them $100 and they'll be there. And in my lodge we have a program for those brothers who cannot afford the dues.
:tc:

[Roy Jamieson Logie]

I'm not sure how it is elsewhere, but in my experiance, people value most what costs them something. Whether it's a monetary (and $100 means a lot more to hourly person making $10/hr than a CEO) or a time and effort cost (psst! buddy! for $20 I can make you a grand high mucky muck of the muck brotherhood). Give a lecture for free and people don't even have the courtesy of cancelling or showing up. Charge them $100 and they'll be there. And in my lodge we have a program for those brothers who cannot afford the dues.
:tc:

That surely is again dependent on the quality of candidate that you allow in.. You obviously do not want someone who "wants to be a grand high mucky muck". But who would ask or allow in such a person in the first place? In Scotland i am a Life Member of everything but Rose Croix (who do not have Life Membership). Thus I never have to pay again in those Orders. Having contributed the necessary amount to the Lodge/Chapter/ Priory funds, up front, does that make me less of a Mason? Even if I have the bad grace to "outlive" what I would have contributed in Annual Dues had I continued to pay dues normally (the idea was to give a boost to the Lodge coffers by paying a number of years Annual Dues in one go. Who can guarantee that their Lodge?Chapter etc., will still exist in twenty years time?). I have also encountered one or two over the years, who had plenty of money. That sadly did not make them better Masons or nicer people. The discourtesy of not of cancelling or of just not showing up is indicative of a defect of character in those individuals, that is an attitude that is undesireable whatever fee may be charged.
Of course financially, you need to make enough money to cover expenses. That is understood and agreed with. I am not trying to advocate"masonry on the cheap" or "free to the masses". It is the principle of charging artificially high fees to restrict Masonry to the well off, that I have difficulty with.
Over here the Lodges, Masonic Halls raise revenue by hiring out the Hall on non Lodge nights for Wedding receptions, seminars, Birthday/anniversary occasions etc., and also to other Orders to hold their meeting in if they do not have their own premises. Thus reducing the need for excessive Annual Dues.

[Bro. David G. Cassidy]

The problem of setting dues too low is that the Lodge's largest reason for existence becomes raising money for its continuing existence. In my short time as a Mason, this is what I have seen happening throughout my area. There are small lodges in many towns around here. There's nothing wrong with small lodges, but each of them have maybe a dozen members who are active, and that activity consists of running programs and coming up with new programs to raise money to keep the Lodge from becoming insolvent.

So far, except for degree work (which I have to admit that with one or two notable exceptions, most of the Brothers had a hard time performing), the entire sum total of my Masonic experience has been Bingo, fund-raising breakfasts, poker nights and planning for an auction and food concession at the upcoming town fair.

Not exactly the "light" I am looking for. In fact, this forum has to date been my only source of Masonic teaching and discourse (bless you all).

I think the issue of dues should be straightforward. A Lodge's dues should be sufficient to cover the basic, annual expenses of that Lodge, thus freeing the Lodge to doing the work and running programs for the edification, education and enlightenment of it members.

I would gladly pay ten times what I pay now, if I could find a Lodge like that.

[Coach N]

Dues get men in the game, and that is the problem. Some believe they are in the game if they pay the stated dues.

I believe that basing dues partly upon participation may impact participation for some.

By setting the dues high with a reduction for participation, as in, doing WORK for the Lodge, the Lodges may see an increase in participation AND funding support by those who do not participate.


Call it a non participation penalty if you will. The bottom line is that this implementation will:
increase funds from the Brothers who cannot/will not contribute physically to the running of the Lodge
weed out those who truly want Masonic association out of convenience
increase participation from those who have $ but not time concerns.
Any support is worthy of dues reduction, including Brothers who cannot make it to Lodge for whatever reason BUT can make phone calls, run errands, maintain the Lodge website, mentoring, Masonic Education providing, do mailings, etc.

:tc:

Bro. Coach N

[Bro. Clay Robinson]

Dues get men in the game, and that is the problem. Some believe they are in the game if they pay the stated dues.

I believe that basing dues partly upon participation may impact participation for some.

By setting the dues high with a reduction for participation, as in, doing WORK for the Lodge, the Lodges may see an increase in participation AND funding support by those who do not participate.


Call it a non participation penalty if you will. The bottom line is that this implementation will:

increase funds from the Brothers who cannot/will not contribute physically to the running of the Lodge
weed out those who truly want Masonic association out of convenience
increase participation from those who have $ but not time concerns.

Any support is worthy of dues reduction, including Brothers who cannot make it to Lodge for whatever reason BUT can make phone calls, run errands, maintain the Lodge website, mentoring, Masonic Education providing, do mailings, etc.

:tc:

Bro. Coach N

I like this idea! However, I'm not sure how well it would work in small lodges. It sounds pretty solid for large lodges, though!

[Coach N]

I like this idea! However, I'm not sure how well it would work in small lodges. It sounds pretty solid for large lodges, though!
It should work out fairly easy for big and small.


Roughly put (more detail is required but this should get you started):
Determine the minimum amount of support $'s needed to cover expenses and projects for the upcoming year - aka create a viable budget. (BUDGET $'s)
Determine what average $'s are required by each member in the form of dues. (Budget/Membership=AD=AVERAGE DUES)
Establish the total man-hour requirement for supporting the upcoming year's activities in total (best case and worse case scenarios). (TMHmin, TMHmax)
Establish the true $ value to the Lodge for standard participation and auxilary support in man-hours. (MHValue)
Create a "credit" value for such support. ($ Credit)
Determine the active/supportive membership numbers over the last year. (A#)
Determine the membership that is inactive/non supportive numbers over the last year. (IA#)
Take the typical active/supportive hours and determine a net value $ wise. (TMHCredit) This will vary from year to year depending upon the % of actives/suppotives vs inactives/non-supportives.
Apply that value to each active/supportive member's dues as a credit. (D active/supprtive = AD-TMHCredit)
Apply that value to each inactive/unsupportive member's dues as a debit. (D inactive/non-supportive = AD+TMHCredit)
:tc:

Bro. Coach N

[Bro. Clay Robinson]

This all works well, in theory, as long as the nonactive members pay their dues. We're having a hard enough time trying to get our "missing" members to pay up! Then again, this is a completely different issue and possible a good subject for another thread....

[Coach N]

This all works well, in theory, as long as the nonactive members pay their dues. We're having a hard enough time trying to get our "missing" members to pay up! Then again, this is a completely different issue and possible a good subject for another thread....
It is a seperate issue but related. I hate to be so bold/brazzen here:

Such non payments should be investigated and if there is no interest in supporting the lodge or paying the Dues for inactive/non supportive members, they should be dismissed accordingly.
If there is truly a interest but a hardship, the Lodge needs to make necessary arrangements.
Better to do without and make adjustments accordingly then to put up with and drain time and energy.

:tc:

Bro. Coach N

[Bro. David G. Cassidy]

Better to do without and make adjustments accordingly then to put up with and drain time and energy.


I agree.

I do not understand what seems to be the common practice of chasing members and begging them to support and participate in their Lodge. If they are just sending a check every year so they can have a membership card in their wallet, fine. I suppose we have to accept that. But if they need to be persuaded to do even that much, what it the rational for wanting them as members of a Lodge? Investigate their situation. If they need help, help them. If they have grown apathetic about Masonry, cut them loose.

[Bro. Jeffrey Blaisdell]

Dues get men in the game, and that is the problem. Some believe they are in the game if they pay the stated dues.

I believe that basing dues partly upon participation may impact participation for some.

By setting the dues high with a reduction for participation, as in, doing WORK for the Lodge, the Lodges may see an increase in participation AND funding support by those who do not participate.



Call it a non participation penalty if you will. The bottom line is that this implementation will:
increase funds from the Brothers who cannot/will not contribute physically to the running of the Lodge
weed out those who truly want Masonic association out of convenience
increase participation from those who have $ but not time concerns.
Any support is worthy of dues reduction, including Brothers who cannot make it to Lodge for whatever reason BUT can make phone calls, run errands, maintain the Lodge website, mentoring, Masonic Education providing, do mailings, etc.

:tc:

Bro. Coach N

But will they then be doing the work simply to reduce their dues? What kind of a Mason do you get then? One who expects financial reward for every deed done? What kind of Craftsmanship do you get from them? Exquisite masterpieces or just cheap labor?

Seems to me that runs counter to almost everything Masonry should focus on.

[Br RJ Gleason]

Keep in mind, some may be embarrassed about their financial situation.
Giving them an option to participate and reducing the financial burden can help.
If they are able to help and participate, then they will also be willing to come to Lodge and learn more too. This then becomes a win/win and you have also done your part in charitable acts too.

[Coach N]

But will they then be doing the work simply to reduce their dues? What kind of a Mason do you get then? One who expects financial reward for every deed done? What kind of Craftsmanship do you get from them? Exquisite masterpieces or just cheap labor?

Seems to me that runs counter to almost everything Masonry should focus on.
Yes Brother Jeffrey,

There is the risk that Brothers who merely want to obtain credit will provide support to the Lodge solely for this purpose.

Do you think the risk has more downsides than upsides?


I see the upsides to both the Lodge and its members and any Brother who is so inclined to partipate with the sole intention of obtaining credit as follows:
Increased visability
Increased interaction
Increased exposure
Increased opportunity
Increased participation
Increased activity
Increased influence
Increased connectedness
Increased support to the individual
Increased man-hour support resource to the Lodge
Decreased isolation
Decreased lack of connectedness
Now, the downsides. Your turn! ;)

[Bro. Bryan Caldwell]

Dues get men in the game, and that is the problem. Some believe they are in the game if they pay the stated dues.

I believe that basing dues partly upon participation may impact participation for some.

By setting the dues high with a reduction for participation, as in, doing WORK for the Lodge, the Lodges may see an increase in participation AND funding support by those who do not participate.


Call it a non participation penalty if you will. The bottom line is that this implementation will:
increase funds from the Brothers who cannot/will not contribute physically to the running of the Lodge
weed out those who truly want Masonic association out of convenience
increase participation from those who have $ but not time concerns.
Any support is worthy of dues reduction, including Brothers who cannot make it to Lodge for whatever reason BUT can make phone calls, run errands, maintain the Lodge website, mentoring, Masonic Education providing, do mailings, etc.

:tc:

Bro. Coach N

I would pretty much have to demit, then.

[Bro. Jeffrey Blaisdell]

Yes Brother Jeffrey,

There is the risk that Brothers who merely want to obtain credit will provide support to the Lodge solely for this purpose.

Do you think the risk has more downsides than upsides?



I see the upsides to both the Lodge and its members and any Brother who is so inclined to partipate with the sole intention of obtaining credit as follows:
Increased visability
Increased interaction
Increased exposure
Increased opportunity
Increased participation
Increased activity
Increased influence
Increased connectedness
Increased support to the individual
Increased man-hour support resource to the Lodge
Decreased isolation
Decreased lack of connectedness
Now, the downsides. Your turn! ;)

In an ideal Lodge, with ideal Brethren, who have truly mastered themselves, this might work. However, these are all things that can be gained through offering education and programs that draw attendance in the first place. An interested Brother will want even more from Masonry. A Brother who feels the desire to do more will. A wise WM will try to match the job to the Brother.

This system will cause some to feel a perceived inequity in the compensation for the work they do vs what others do. It opens the door for discord. That is a downside, IMO, that greatly outweighs any benefits.

This also places a financial aspect on the work done in and for a Lodge. It destroys the value and beauty of work done for its own sake.

[Bro. James Kinslow]

Motive is key. A good Mason and leader will seek to help and improve others, and honor God. If one purposefully self perpetuates so they can continue to be used effectively for those reasons, then self perpetuation is virtuous. However, if one does things in the name of Masonry for mercenary motives alone, then that is a direct violation of the Tenets of the Fraternity. (you're welcome for stating the obvious, just in the mood to keep it simple, carry on gents!)

[Coach N]

I would pretty much have to demit, then.
Brother,

I am aware of your situation. Is there nothing that you could offer your Lodge that has any value to its operation?

Also, you raise an issue that could be addressed through GL channels. With such issues being raised elsewhere, could there not be an unaffiliated class that is not associated with the Work that Lodges do but allows for GL membership within the Jurisdiction? Such a "bare" membership still allows travel and participation but doesn't allow for voting and officership (aside from musician and tyler, at least in my area.)

If the system is to Work, we have to be open to all conditions that face our Brothers.

Why raise the white flag so quickly? :confused:

[Coach N]

In an ideal Lodge, with ideal Brethren, who have truly mastered themselves, this might work. However, these are all things that can be gained through offering education and programs that draw attendance in the first place. An interested Brother will want even more from Masonry. A Brother who feels the desire to do more will. A wise WM will try to match the job to the Brother.

This system will cause some to feel a perceived inequity in the compensation for the work they do vs what others do.
I believe that this is already the case my Brother.
It opens the door for discord. That is a downside, IMO, that greatly outweighs any benefits.
That discord is most likely already occurring my Brother. This merely makes us honest about the inequity that already exists.
This also places a financial aspect on the work done in and for a Lodge. It destroys the value and beauty of work done for its own sake.
This is a choosen view. One can equally view it as a way of making sure that the Work gets done. I do not see it as a bad thing to acknowledge who does what to support the Lodge. I know that I do what I can. If that is not enough, then I want to know what more I can offer if I cannot dedicate "man-hours" towards the needs of the Lodge operation.

[Bro. Jeffrey Blaisdell]

That discord is most likely already occurring my Brother. This merely makes us honest about the inequity that already exists.

Honest? Really? When men will blackball a Candidate because of his race or faith? or engage in petty politics? Now we are going to introduce a financial incentive? Money rarely makes men honest. This will turn the subject of money within the Lodge from "How much can I give?" to "How much can I get?"

What's next? Do we levy fines on members who don't contribute, or fail to complete the task to a level someone else feels it should have been done?

If there is any inequity, it is falsely perceived because of a misplaced value resulting from a failure to completely grasp Freemasonry.

One can equally view it as a way of making sure that the Work gets done.


The Work is, as you say it, Building Builders. Everything else is ancillary.


I do not see it as a bad thing to acknowledge who does what to support the Lodge.


That's what the words "Thank you" are for.

[Coach N]

Honest? Really? When men will blackball a Candidate because of his race or faith? or engage in petty politics? Now we are going to introduce a financial incentive? Money rarely makes men honest. This will turn the subject of money within the Lodge from "How much can I give?" to "How much can I get?"

What's next? Do we levy fines on members who don't contribute, or fail to complete the task to a level someone else feels it should have been done?

If there is any inequity, it is falsely perceived because of a misplaced value resulting from a failure to completely grasp Freemasonry.

The Work is, as you say it, Building Builders. Everything else is ancillary.

That's what the words "Thank you" are for.
Obviously this all requires a certain level of maturity to implement. If that doesn't exist, well, sadly, there is not much hope for other challenges either.

Many of the problems you outliined here are dues to the EA & FC Work not being done.

[Bro. Jeffrey Blaisdell]

And with said level of maturity, we wouldn't have to "pay" Brethren to participate. It's a sad, vicious catch-22.:(

I don't know how to break the cycle, other than to not be a part of it and set the example.

[Coach N]

And with said level of maturity, we wouldn't have to "pay" Brethren to participate. It's a sad, vicious catch-22.:(

I don't know how to break the cycle, other than to not be a part of it and set the example.
Talking about helps break it up a bit and put it out there for all to see.